It is no secret that acclaimed English screenwriter Michael Hirst (Elizabeth, The Tudors) thought that the Vikings had received bad press, so when he created History Channel’s first scripted series, Vikings, he was determined to tell the stories of the Scandinavian seafarers without the “ridiculous stereotypes” that had overshadowed them.
With his academic background and love of research, Hirst has a strong commitment to historical authenticity. His compelling narrative, a stand-out international cast, award winning directors and designers, combined with the vivid scenery of Ireland has made VIkings a worldwide ratings success as well as a critically acclaimed historical drama. It has also changed the way we look at (and think about) this fascinating culture, and most powerfully, its religious beliefs. Vikings is rich in vision and visuals, and undeniably, one of the most riveting shows on television.
I spoke with Vikings creator and sole writer Michael Hirst about the highly anticipated fourth season, working with Australian actors Travis Fimmel and Alyssa Sutherland, his writing process, why Ragnar is one of the greatest characters on television; and why the audience will always rally behind him, no matter what.
This interview has been edited for clarity. Any scenes referred to from season four are not identified to avoid spoilers.
MARIA NAYEF: How did we end up with such a big season this year, with double the episodes?
MICHAEL HIRST: I think the short answer is a vote of confidence by the History Channel and MGM. It’s a show that’s been successfully building, and I think now it’s one of the biggest shows in the world. There’s that to it, and I think another aspect is that these days, because of streaming services, more people are less willing to wait a whole year to see the next season. This time, in America certainly, they’ll get the first 10 episodes of season four now, and the next ten starting sometime like September. So, it could be that the next order could also be for twenty episodes for the same reason.
I write about the show in Australia and often boast that the Viking King and Queen are Australian. Can you tell us a little about working with Travis Fimmel (Ragnar) and Alyssa Sutherland (Aslaug)?
Well, we were absolutely blessed when we cast Travis. It would be fair to say that we took a chance, because, you know, he hadn’t done much television drama. Right from the start I was looking for a different kind of Viking. Not the usual cliché of a Viking as someone very loud, very violent, very crude and not very intelligent. I wanted an introverted, thoughtful man who would be motivated not by rape and plunder, but by curiosity, and who just confounded all the ridiculous stereotypes that we’ve all had in the past about Vikings.
Who knew I would get an Australian? But Travis gave me everything I wanted, and right from the start. He’s also grown remarkably during these four seasons. If you look at the way he started, and where he’s got to now, there is a big transformation. He commands the screen, he doesn’t actually need to say anything, just be there. He is someone who is just present, and you want to watch him.
And of course we have Alyssa too – and not her fault my fault – that she was cast as the woman who took Ragnar away from Lagertha (Katheryn Winnick)…
Yes, unfortunately she’s had a few haters…
Yes, she got a very negative response to that, which to her credit, she sort of embraced. She hasn’t run away from that. So what we’ve done more recently is say to her: ‘Let’s reconnect you to your Vikings roots, your famous Viking father, we’ll take you a little darker so you’re connected more to the kind of Floki, Ivar kind of dream of a Viking life.’ And she’s embraced that too, and I think her performance in season four, is actually, incredible.
What will surprise us most about season four, and what will break our hearts?
Well, I can’t give too much away, but one thing that will surprise you, because it surprised me, is I learnt that with the real Vikings, if they were frustrated from taking their boats up river, for example, if there was some obstacle that was built or a fort or something in the way, they would actually dismantle their boats and carry them over the mountain and put them down at a particular point on the river. It was called portage, and it’s an astonishing idea, partly because of how heavy these boats would be.
So, I put it into the script, and I said to production: ‘I’m sure we can’t actually do this BUT… that’s what the Vikings did. It would be amazing if we could do something like that.’ And I still remember the day that I walked up the mountains here in Ireland to a place where I saw Viking ships being hauled up a cliff face – Viking ships being hauled through a forest – for real. It’s the most awesome thing I think I’ve seen on the show so far, and we do a lot of awesome.
You most certainly do!
And what will break our hearts? Oh… a lot of things will break your heart… and a lot of things have broken mine. But I have to say that people don’t give their lives up easily in Vikings, so, whatever happens, happens for a reason. We do death very well in Vikings, but I’m afraid to tell you: Yes. There are many, many, very, very sad moments in season four.
Last season we saw Lagertha hold some soil up to her face at the farming settlement in Wessex; I thought it was a very poignant moment, reminding me of the Lagertha we met in season one. Ragnar however seems like a shadow of his former self. If he had the choice to give up his title and everything he’s amassed, would he go back to being that farmer in that little hut?
Ah…
Or is that person gone?
That person is gone.
Right.
And I think a lot of season four is about identity. We have Bjorn (Alexander Ludwig) going into the wilderness to find out who he really is, and various other characters either trying to redefine themselves or discover things about themselves.
In Ragnar’s case, it’s very much about the burden of kingship. He never wanted to be an earl. He never wanted to be king. He became powerful for other reasons, and he finds the burden of kingship is foremost insufferable. And yet, he knows he has to carry it, so there are some things, I think, very heroic about how Ragnar copes with the burden, what he has to say about power, and how it should be used, and I don’t want to give anything away…
Yes, I understand, but there is a scene early in the season, that when I saw it, it made me very upset, and I started to hate him…
I’m telling you, you will certainly not hate him.
I thought: are you trying to question the audience’s loyalty to him, trying to see how far they’ll rally behind him and support him?
Well, I have to say he does other things in this season that are also perhaps unexpected, and unexpectedly brutal. I think in a way – I mean I’m not deliberately challenging the audience – but he’s a very complex character, he’s a very complex man, he’s never been, actually, a straightforward hero. And Travis carries those complexities I think, and contradictions, inside himself. And still, whatever he does, I think you’ll certainly never lose interest in him. And I think that in the end, as it were, you will still admire him.
Well that’s the intriguing thing, isn’t it?
You’ll see his struggle, and we’re constantly reminded I think of who he was and why he does what he does, even though we see him changing, getting older, you know, he has a real life in the show. And just for me, I love the character. I love Travis. Travis and I have been on a journey together. We’ve spent a lot of time talking about the character, and we’ve been on this amazing journey. And I think that Ragnar is one of the greatest TV characters that has ever been, if I could put it like that.
I think so. His image alone has become quite iconic.
Yeah.
And that’s another thing I wanted to ask: The show is steeped in literature and history, it’s been praised by academics, but at the same time, it’s a big hit at San Diego Comic-Con. Did you ever imagine that it would amass such a passionate fan base and become a pop culture phenomenon?
Yeah, and just think of this: we re-introduced five dead languages into a contemporary television show. Isn’t that amazing?
Yes. It really has the best of both worlds.
I’m really excited by it. I mean the thing that’s amazed me is that I assumed that for most people, they would react to the kind of visceral elements: fighting and stuff. My interest was perhaps more in the comparative religion and the paganism, and the struggle between paganism and Christianity, and I thought that was a more intellectual part of the show that might have a sort of minority appeal, but actually, at Comic-Con most of the questions are about that area of the show, about paganism, about Athelstan, and I love it.
It’s aesthetically gratifying on so many levels, and at the same time, so informative.
I think so. A critic said Vikings is one of the few network shows that takes religion seriously. But it takes it seriously in a dramatic way, I think that’s the point, you know? It’s not a dry, academic show. It’s a real, living experience.
Absolutely, and none more so than what we see in the opening scenes of the first episode of season four…
Oh yeah.
I was so touched by it. I was visibly moved. I have a long interest in Norse mythology and I’ve never seen that particular aspect depicted so realistically. You could reach out and touch it. It was absolutely phenomenal.
Oh great, thank you. It was hard work. You can imagine the many discussions we had with everyone concerned to try and get something that was kind of mystical, but also had some reality about it. I think it did work out in the end, very well.
Well, thank you for that moment. My last question is for the writers out there. Could you tell me about your writing process for Vikings: is there a time of day you set aside specifically to write, do you write in the same place, or can you write anywhere?
Well the sad truth is I write all the time, so I don’t have any fixed time. I usually start early in the morning and I will often finish about ten or eleven at night. But I do most of the heavy lifting as it where at home in my study, which is in the garden, so I’m with the family all the time. So I’m not such a bad dad, you know, I do have human relations (chuckles).
So you’re not locked up with your characters all the time!
Yes. But the characters to me have become almost real people. I talk to them, and I go back into my study to meet with them and discuss what they’ve been up to, and where they’ve been to. Of course, I do a lot of rewriting because I work with the directors and I work with the actors, and I can do that here in Ireland. I’m in Ireland now, near the Irish Sea, which is very beautiful. I can do all that rewriting here, but the major blocks, I do at home.
Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing all of that with me Mr. Hirst, I can’t wait to see the rest of the season.
I do think it’s our strongest season.
Well the first four episodes alone have already blown me away. Suffice it to say you’ve done it, you’ve already outdone season three!
(Laughs) Yes. And I’m looking forward to season five.
Season Four of Vikings begins in Australia on SBS at 8.30pm on Wednesday, February 24.
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